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Jackpot Header Pipe, Dyno Tuned Mufflers Review
I am compelled to write this review of the Jackpot Headpipes and the Jackpot Dyno Tuned Mufflers. Before I get to that I need to start this review off by stating that I met Doc through these forums a few years ago when i was having issues getting my Street Glide to run properly. Doc was one of the few people that presented knowledge about how to tune using the SERT. He helped me finally get my SG run correctly but I had not used him as a tuner. I went through 3 different tuners before I met Doc, talked with several different folks on the forums and was in the process of learning how the SERT software worked because I was having issues with Decel popping and could not get a resolution. I eventually worked everything out of that bike and swore off ever making an adjustment again and if I did I swore only Doc would tune my bike. I decided to purchase a 2011 Electra Glide Classic. I told my wife that I wouldn't tune anything - that at most I would put on slip-ons. That was before I found out there was a CAT in the headpipes. In the beginning I figured I could work through it - but here in Florida 300 plus degrees rising up under your leg gets super hot really quickly. I sent a note over to Doc about what I could do and he told me to take a look at the Jackpot headpipes. I went to the FuelMoto website, looked over the combinations and sent Jamie several emails asking questions. Each email was met with a reply and Jamie told me to look at the Jackpot headpipe and Jackpot Dyno tuned muffler combination. I took a look and for my simple 96 inch motor it appeared that this combination would get me 14 more hp and 14 more pounds of torque. I must admit I was very skeptical at this point looking at the dyno charts posted on the website - but FuelMoto has a great reputation and Jamie and his staff were very friendly and customer oriented so I decided to take a chance. The parts arrived in 2 shipments as I had to wait for the headpipes because they were on back order - but I still only waited a week for all of the parts to arrive. I also ordered the Arlen Ness Big Sucker stage 1 kit. Opening the box on the mufflers I was pleased, noticed that one core was smaller than the other - which is what I expected. When the headpipes arrived I was very pleased with them. I have installed a few sets of pipes in my day and I must say that these were the most precise, well welded set of pipes I have ever had my hands on. I installed everything within a couple of hours and everything went smoothly. The only issue I thought I had was that the headpipes didn't appear to go deep into the heads where the flanges were. After talking with one of Jamie's techs and going over it we determined that it was installed as expected. The only hiccup was that the bolts had about 2 threads showing - which is normal. There were no exhaust leaks. I took the bike over to Doc's Performance Tuning in Mineola, Florida. As I promised myself before, this was the only person who was going to tune my bike. As I stated earlier he demonstrated an immense amount of knowledge to me that nobody else had been able to do from my previous experiences. I also have heard by word of mouth and seen many bikes get tuned from him so I was confident that he was the man for the job. He is about 100.00 more than most - but I wanted it done right and I don't want to fool around trying to do it myself this time and 100.00 is worth it to me. I took the bike up today and he tuned it for about 3.5 - 4.0 hours. I watched him go through all of the high ends and low ends and do the vtuning. He is very meticulious and precise, goes through all of the cells and doesn't skip or shortcut. Most of the time I snuck up to the window and he never saw me watching what he was doing - and I watched I saw first hand that he was following the tuning recipe that he preaches to the students he teaches.
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Doc’s Performance Tuning
I just returned from Florida and a visit to Doc’s Performance Tuning. Doc installed a TTS MasterTune and did a dyno on my bike. My bike is an 09 Street Glide, stock except for an SE air cleaner and custom baffles in the stock pipes. I learned several things on the trip, all of which I will put in a separate post, this one is about Doc and the TTS MasterTune.
I learned about Doc from an earlier post in this forum. Other than stating Doc is one of the best tuners in the country they also said he works by appointment only so make sure you call in advance, which I did. The appointment only thing works out well, that way Doc can stay focused on you and your bike and is not distracted by a constant stream of customers. The unrushed individual attention made me feel like I was going to get my money’s worth right out the gate.
Doc is a very friendly guy, easy to get along with, honest and pleasant to be around. He is also very knowledgeable and detail oriented. The first thing I noticed when I walked into his shop was how clean and organized it was, no clutter and everything neatly arranged, including every tool in his tool box. You know what they say; a cluttered desk is a cluttered mind. Obviously Doc does not have that problem.
Doc went over the TTS and the dyno, everything he was going to do and how long it would take. Doc noticed I did not have a wheel chock in my trailer and my tie down hooks were pretty crappy to boot. He gave me a couple tie down bolts and offered to let me use his tools and his shop to install a wheel chock. You can’t beat that for customer relations, but with Doc it is not so much customer relations, it is more so that he is a nice guy doing what he can to help.
Doc gave me directions to the local Harley Dealer he does business with all the time, Stormy Hill Harley Davidson. It was 9:30am and Doc said my bike would be ready by 3:30pm, so I was off to find a wheel chock. I ended up running all over the Orlando area and never did find one I liked, but while I was at Stormy Hill I asked them about replacing, under warranty, my compensator with the upgraded SE compensator. They said they would if I paid the difference for the cost of the parts. I jumped on that deal and made an appointment for the next morning. (I had previously talked with several dealers in my area; none of them would do the upgrade).
I got back to Doc’s a little after 3:30pm and my bike was waiting for me. It started right up and ran smooth, I took it for a test ride, it was quick and responsive and after putting a couple thousand miles on it over the next week on freeways, back roads and a lot of coastal roads through town after town, stop light after stop light, I found I am getting between 38 and 42 mpg, depending on how and where I ride the bike. My bike is tuned perfectly, with just the right blend of performance and fuel economy. Doc highly recommends the TTS over any other tuning system, and the combination of the TTS and Doc’s experience and skill is a perfect match. Doc got the most out of my bike anyone possibly could, it runs great.
For those of you who are into numbers. My bike went from 71.28 max power and 81.62 max torque to 78.17 max power and 92.16 max torque SAE, or 80.36 max power and 94.74 max torque STD. I think most people use STD, either way those are pretty high numbers for a stock bike with just an air cleaner and slip-ons. Even better than the numbers, my bike feels good and is a pleasure to ride.
Thanks Doc for the great tune, it was a pleasure meeting you. And for anyone wanting the best possible tune, by one of the best in the country, make your way down to Florida and see Doc, he won’t let you down.
Graphs did not upload, I'll try to add them.
Doc’s Performance Tuning
317 E. Washington St, Unit A
Minneola, FL 34715 |
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Just had my bike tuned by Doc yesterday.
Here's my setup: 2010 FLHX 96" D&D Boss Fatcat SE air cleaner backplate with K&N filter SEST stage 1 download (this is important to remember) I had been running the D&D's for about 700 miles prior to the tune yesterday. While they do make a noticeable power difference and I love the sound, they do need a tune, or at least a stage 1 download, to get rid of the sporatic power boosts and dips (at least from my experience). The mechanic at my local dealer said that with only stage 1 mods, no tune is needed and that the stage 1 download is sufficient. I must admit that the download did even out the power and get rid of the inconsitencies in the power band. However, it did nothing for the decel popping or throttle lag(thought I was getting shot at a couple of times!). I know that decel popping is not really dangerous for the bike, but it's a sign that the download is not sufficient. After consulting with Doc and some other forum members, I decided to switch over to the Mastertune. I originally was going to install cams and have it tuned by the dealer, but I decided that it would be a better investment (for me anyways) to have a finely tuned bike with my existing mods than to install cams, plus it cost me a couple hundred bucks less. Doc is a super nice guy. I am very inquisitive and he tolerated my onslaught of questioning with a genuinely great attitude. He explained the process to me and told me what to expect. His shop is extremely clean and you can tell that he is the kind of guy that takes pride in what he does and really enjoys it. He is not someone that tunes just to get numbers out of it. He focuses on driveability, a combination of performance, good gas mileage and smoothness, and he even got rid of my hot starting problem. After about 4.5 hours of tuning I was ready for a test ride . Immediately after pulling onto the highway I noticed the quick throttle response that was lacking before. It accelerated powerfully and smoothly, and the decel pop is almost completely gone (heard only about two slight pops on the way home). It may be my imagination, but the D&D sounds just a bit quieter than before, with a nice low rumble. I live about 2.5 hours from Doc's shop, so I had plenty of time to evaluate the performance on the way home. I did a lot of throttling and decelerating when I wasn't around a lot of traffic. I definitely notice the power difference, but what I really like is the throttle response. No more lag! Unfortunately I don't have a scanner right now to post the Dyno results, but I ended up with 92.12 TQ (up from 82.04 with Stage 1 download) and 76.75 HP (up from 69.55 with Stage 1 download). These are SAE results, not STD. While it won't rip my arms out of the sockets or win any drag races, I am very happy with where it's at right now ( I know, I know, famous last words).
__________________ 2010 Vivid Black Street Glide D&D Fatcat SE Stage 1 Aircleaner Kit K&N Filter TTS Mastertune by Doc
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Doc
Thanks for tuning my bike last Saturday. You have done a fantastic job and I am extremely pleased. The Bike is running better then it ever has.
As for the exhaust leaks, I have not done anything about it yet.
Road home on Saturday after the tune and road two up on Sunday. Put about 125 miles on it after the tune on Saturday and Sunday and I am very Pleased. As you said, it will feel like a different Bike. At 60 MPH it purrs like a kitten and acceleration, you can hear it roar.
Thanks for a fantastic job!
Sincerely
Ed Koroshetz
2003 Road King Classic
Land O Lakes, Fl.
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Bob
I had Doc from Doc"s performance tuning tune my bike. He installed the TTS. And spent five hours tuning my 2010 cvo ultra. It has never run so strong and smooth until Doc tuned it. He has a very clean shop. And he is not happy until you are. He is located in Minneola Florida. Bob.
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Ed
I personally met Doc over a year ago through one of his successful students who manages a Honda shop and works on my other bikes. I have always kept a Harley as well, currently an '06 Streetglide, bought new a Gator Harley. Before delivery was taken I added a big bore kit (95"), Andrews G37 Cams, Race Tuner, and Vance & Hines ovals. I had another student of Doc's dyno tune the bike after the work was done, as the shop did not have a dyno. It had 80.18 HP and 88.64 torque. When Doc opened his shop I started hanging out there and helped him setup the dyno room prior to opening. What I have observed personally and know of Doc is that he is without a doubt the most meticolous, knowledgeable Harley mechanic I have known. My first Harley was 1953. While there at the shop I have met people from all over the country and Canada who have trailered bikes in for builds and dyno tunes. I have yet to meet one unhappy client since he has opened the shop. While hanging out there I have taken calls from all over the country from people picking his brain on either engine problems or tunes, who by the way, he always helps. Recently we redid my engine by putting Basiley S/S heads, 50 mm throttle body, upgrade TTS with an HS pro pipe. The bike dynoed with 102.06 HP and 103.04 torque . The bike runs great throughtout the whole RPM range and is getting 39.72 miles per gallon. Through hanging out there Doc has now become a close and very honest friend who has an excellent reputation as a leader in the Harley Performance World. I could not be happier with the bike and will continue to refer business to Doc because he is the best I have found!! This is not just an opinion but fact.
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Roger
I have known Doc for a few years and yes, I consider him a good friend. At this point, he has built a 103" motor for me, is preparing to build another this summer, has performed cam upgrades and tunes on two bikes and also tuned two others – or, I should say, fixed the tunes on those two bikes when they were tuned badly by somebody closer who was recommended to me. At all times, he has been professional and man, does he know his stuff. They bikes he has worked on for me run great and his tunes are the envy of my riding friends. I highly recommend his services to anybody looking to get their bike tuned right and I stake my personal reputation on that recommendation. I should also add that I drive eight hours each way from Augusta, Georgia to have Doc work on my bikes. It is well worth the trip.
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Went to Docs performance tuning north of Orlando fl weds and thurs and I am beyond happy with the results. Doc asked me what type of rider I am tourer aggressive etc... And what RPM band I like to use the most. He then recommended
The following rush true duals, SE 254e I have monster ovals and a SE air filter.after installation he dyno tuned the bike. His level of knowledge and professional abilities is well beyond the vast majority of so called Harley tuners. The bike is smooth as silk at high speeds low speeds doesn't matter. Gas millage 38 at 80...... Plus he is a great guy to learn from . He works by appointment only but you will be in the shop with him learning if you choose. My questions were non stop but each one was answered. I was more fun then ..........xyz ...I now understand how much bad information is out there. Performance is about balance not numbers. This is not the same bike I came in with.......maps are maps and a detailed tune is in another class if you have the cash.......Doc is five star recommended .....good guy as well |
My 103 RGU tuned and built by Doc ________________________________________
I can't tell you how happy I am with my new 2011 Road glide Ultra. I consider myself to be very Blessed to have read about and met Doc Weaver, He's known as one of the best Dyno tuners in the business. If anybody knows whats the best combo to put in these new bikes its Doc. When talking with Doc I told him I wanted to use the Fat Cats and I was having a hard time getting them 3 week back order. Doc told me he would call me right back he did, and told me the pipes would be at his shop in a week no problem. He suggested to me to put in a S,E. 254E in the bike. i told him my concerns after having a tw7h in my last build and I didn't want to listen to that racket again, the extra ponies just wasn't worth it. Doc told me how smooth it would be and told me I would love them. From knowing Doc and his Reputation his only motive is to make his customer's happy, and I can tell you he works very hard at doing that. I trailered my bike 250 miles just to have Doc put this cam in and tune the bike. Doc told me why don't you come by in the am you can watch me in the dyno room, then at 12 will go to lunch. I watched Doc sweat in that room tuning that bike to perfection. The first thing I noticed was how different the Boss fat cats are compared to the ones I had on my 07, They are beautiful. When Doc was finally finished he gave me the map of the tune. Then showed me the charts from the tune, He explained everything to me in a way I could understand what it all meant. I only had one thing to complain about, it was raining and I couldn't take it for a ride. We went out together for a nice lunch, and the plan was I'd come back in the am put the bike on the trailer and go back to Miami. Well before that bike was going on the trailer I had to take it for a spin. I was shocked at how that bike performed. This Monday the 4th me and some friends are going for a ride down to the keys I cant wait. I have to say Doc thank you very much, there should be allot more people like you in this world. www.docsperformancetuning.com 352-4046999 |
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Got my bike back yesterday from Doc.
He tuned my 2011 EGC which has Jackpot Dyno tuned mufflers and the Jackpot Headpipes along with an Arlen Ness Big Sucker stage 1 kit. Not a fancy setup, not big cams or engine work - one day I may be interested in that stuff but for now I just want a cooler well running bike. Anyway, Doc tuned everything from VE tables through timing tables. He didn't skip a step - worked on it for about 3.5 hours. We started at 68 horsepower and 84 pds of torque (with the setup as is pipes and a/c installed - probably even lower with the oem stuff) running a TTS stock map. When he was done my 5th gear runs were 84.7 horsepower and 92 pds of torque and the 6th gear runs were 79 hp and 94.7 pds of tq. Not only that but the fuel line is perfectly straight for both the front and the rear cylinders. Did 40 miles on the bike yesterday and another 40 miles on it today. Long runs, stopping and starting, cold and hot and the bike runs like a maniac. I have had bikes tuned before with other tuners (sert and PC) and I have never had a bike run as well as this one does. It seamlessly shifts between gears, no hesitation whatsoever and gets up and goes when you crack the throttle. I can't stop smiling at how well it runs. Anyway, I wanted to pass this along for anyone who thought they might be interested in using Doc's services. he is in Mineola (Clermont), Florida and his number is on the dyno charts I am posting below. I don't do endorsements unless I really believe in the person doing the work and I must say that you will get exactly what you pay for here - a quality tune with no shortcuts. It is well worth the money and worth not getting halfway there wasting your time trying to vtune it. The other endorsement is the Jackpot Mufflers and Headpipes. The website claims 14 hp and 14 tq and you can see below that those also live up to the hype. I didn't believe it at first - that simply changing pipes and adding a stage 1 air cleaner would give this kind of performance but now I am singing in the choir. Jamie's crew is friendly, knowledgeable and most important of all - accessible. They are a sponsor here so you know where to get their number - highly recommend them.
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First off I would like to express my sincere thanks to the following;
John Wadsworth - otherwise known as Herko John Wadsworth 29620 Green Road Borden, IN 47106 812-923-9027 herko@insightbb.com Gary Wallace - Andrews Cams Andrews Products, Inc. 431 Kingston Ct. Mount Prospect, IL 60056 1-847-759-0190 Doc - Doc's Performance Tuning Doc's Performance Tuning 317 E Washington St. unit A Minneola, Florida 34715 352-404-6999 and those of you who turned me onto these folks.
Without the help of these 3 people and all of you who assisted me none of this would have worked out the way it did so my sincerest thanks to you all. If you ever need help with something performance related, it's great to know this forum has the ability to help you and then you have people mentioned above who are more than willing to answer any of your questions. As stated in the above comment, the end result was 89 HP and 102TQ with the Andrews 48h cams really coming into play about 3100 RPMs. These numbers really don't mean a bunch to me because they are just that, numbers. There are umpteen-million factors that go into calculating these numbers and those calculations vary from one tuner to the next, one bike to the next, one tuning device to the next, all based mostly on how good the tuner is and how good the equipment is that he's using. As long as I can feel what I was trying to achieve, I didn't care about the numbers. I FEEL IT! 2008 First Dyno with Stage 1 kit produced 79HP and 90TQ with stock engine, thunder header slips ons and high flow breather. The stock cams appeared to come into play about 2700RPMs and fell right off the chart at 3400 RPMs. Stock bikes are good for some but my sole intention was to gain some power and torque in the mid range so that I didn't have to shift down 2 gears to pass someone at 70MPH. I wanted to be able to roll on the throttle and do my deed. Obviously that wasn't going to happen in 6th gear because it's so tall but my end result was it worked WONDERS in 5th gear. Fast forward to last week after cams were installed and a dyno done. Because these cams are fairly new, not many people have expereince with them and my tuner was no different. He fought with them on the low end and I wound up bringing the bike back to him this *NOTE* The reason he was able to easily tune it down low this time was for 1 reason and 1 reason only and it's spelled DOC at Doc's Performance Tuning in Fla. After my initial tune last week that produced the above final HP and TQ results, I had a problem where as between 1000 and 2000 RPMs exactly the bike would spit, sputter, and backfire. The first time it happened, I almost dropped my bike in a busy intersection taking off from a stop light. Scared the crap out of me! I spoke to Doc a few times on the phone taking up about an hour or so of his time and several emails floated back and forth as well. In this bit of time I learned more from this man about cams, overlapping, tuning pipes, accel pop, decel pop, fuel detonation, etc than I will ever be able to put to good use but it was all knowledge I NEEDED to make informed and educated decisions. Within the first 30 seconds of my initial conversation with Doc and me trying to explain what was happening, he said stop.. hold on.. what kind of pipes do you have? I told him thunder header slipons. He then told me that this is something every tuner should know about thunder headers whether slipons or true duals. Look into the back of the pipe. You will see what looks like an inverted diamond. Take a broomstick handle and a rubber mallet and bend those four sides to within a 1/4" to 3/8" of the inside walls. I asked what that was going to do, he chuckled and said I won't tell you right now, just do it and do it BEFORE you bring it back to your tuner to fix the fuel tables on the lower RPM range. There are multiple reasons for the 1/4" to 3/8" but the most important one to know at this point is that your tuner will stick a long copper tube up the tailpipe into the header pipe to get AFR readings and that tube is 1/4". :-) So in my hesitation to beat on an expensive set of tail-pipes, I decided to go ahead and do it. Worst case scenario is the inside is never seen and if needed, I could always bend them back. The metal flanges that are to be bent are fairly thin so if you do this, use light hammer strokes! I did that last night and informed Doc I had done it. He told me to take it for a ride and report back. The report back to Doc was this; No more spitting, sputtering, or backfiring at low RPMs and I could feel the difference down low so I knew this changed something with the power-band but he still wouldn't tell me how; now I know why. He wanted me to get the two dyno runs and compare them. Took the bike in this morning to have the tune tweaked and put on the dyno again. Although no change in HP and TQ, the power band changed. instead of these cams coming in at 3100 RPMs and rolling on to about 4800 RPMs before dropping, the power band moved backwards. The cams now come into play at 2500 RPMs and roll onto about 4300 RPMs. All because of bending those little metal flaps in the back of that tail-pipe creating a little more backpressure. Just amazing stuff to me and I can't thank Doc enough for that snazzy little trick! Anyways, off my soap-box. Just thought I'd share this with all of you. I'm done.. I'm going RIDE! This is Texas BTW so riding during the winter is awesome! :-) Ultra 2009 FLHTCU (Houston Area Rig Riders) Thunder Header Slipons, Pro SuperTuner, SE High Flow Air Breather, Andrews 48H (89HP and 101TQ)
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I spent a lot of time at Doc's last week.
To say that he is a great guy is an understatement. I have been waiting to do a thread on my new build, the ups and downs. But I want to say he went out of his way to help me fix some of the issues I had, being my first build, I learned a lot!!!! I'll try to make a long story short, I had to remove the rear rocker box for clearance issues, he basically said there's the lift and there's the tools, that way it won't cost as much, and he did pitch in. I ended up leaving the bike there after being broken in, due to issues beyond our control. I was going to head back up there in 4 days (when he had time open) to try to fix a vacuum leak. He called 3 days later and said he's got it on the dyno right now and can pick it up tomorrow. (the day I was going up to work on it) So instead of working on it I was riding it through the hills of Clermont that morning. When I showed up he had a big smile. I felt terrible that I felt I was wasting his time, but he was very understanding. I was heart broken, but smiling on the first twist of the throttle. The outcome,,,, it made more power than I was hoping, 106hp-111tq STD 104hp-108tq SAE More on the build in another upcoming thread. Thanks Doc!!!! Jody
__________________ '03 Deuce, '03 Classic, '04 XL Custom
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Another satisfied customer here too.
Everything the original post said, and it's the same from everyone who goes to him. He definitely knows what he's doing. My dealer did a download using the SEST on mine and told me that with just pipes and an air cleaner a tune wouldn't do me any good. HAHAHA. Doc pulled another 10 TQ and 6 HP, plus a LOT more rideability. Fantastic throttle response, gas mileage and he even fixed my hot start problem. Great guy, great service.
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Lone Wolf
I had the pleasure of hanging out with Doc for eight days last year. He has forgotten more than most people will ever know about Harley engines and tuning them, efi or carb. If you have a chance to have your bike tuned by him it will be done right. Great guy.
__________________ 2007 FLHX
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Doc also did my tune and I agree completely, he knows what he's doing and doesn't rush you out the door to get to the next one; very proffesional. There's no substitute for a good tune, it makes no sense to me to spend a ton of money doing this or that and then cheap out on the final step in the process. Sounds like he did right by you, enjoy
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He's only about 30-45 minutes from Orlando, depending on traffic. I drove down from Jacksonville to have Doc tune my bike and I was 100% impressed. He really knows his stuff and doesn't just look to get numbers out of a bike. He goes for total driveability and all around performance. Plus, he's a super nice guy. Highly recommend you do it while you're that close.
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I have to chime in here as well. Doc tuned my 2010 SG last saturday and it runs like a swiss watch now!!! Doc spent about 4 hours and got it perfect. I will definetely go back if I ever need anything else, maybe one day soon a 103 kit?
Dave
He IS the best. An honest and good man, knows jack sh!t too. Take it to the bank.
Jerry
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Just got back from the tune Doc performed
And let me tell ya, the bike has NEVER run any better!! It is just simply amazing! So smooth, very responsive, doesn't backfire or sputter anymore. Its niiiiiiiiiiiice! Here are my numbers: 4th gear run: Max HP: Was at 65.49, now at 70.26 Max Torque: Was at 67.34, now at 71.68 5th gear run: Max HP: 71.41 Max Torque: 74.02 He said he was very pleased with how the tune went, the numbers looked very good he said. I'm happy, he's happy, so that was great!
Oh, riding it hard for sure!! Its amazing how the tone of the pipe even changed, and the idle! It sounds SOOOOOOO much better now. Very deep, and throatier tone. My fiance even noticed it, and I hadn't even said anything to her about it. So that was definitely a confirmation that the sound is even better now!
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Another worthwhile trip to Mineola Fl Doc tuned my 2004 SEEG with a built 131 to perfection. Runs smooth stronger and efficient. Thanks DOC
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Final numbers are hp 98 and torque 112 (CF: SAE smoothing 4).
I’m telling the numbers up front because let’s face it, that’s what we all want to know.
If those numbers don’t impress you, then the rest of this 3 page review may bore you. If you’re interested in why I am satisfied with the results… read on.
I stayed at the Holiday Inn express which was very nice, reasonable and just 2 or 3 miles from Doc’s. As I rounded the corner in to the parking lot at Doc’s place, I was greeted with a smile and a wave to ride the bike right in the bay. If your shy around people you better get over that. Doc is all about open communication and will tell it like it is. He’s got a great sense of humor and makes you feel right at home. He’ll answer any question and offer options and solutions if necessary based on his enormous experience and expertise.
As he began the tune on Thursday CVORick from the forum showed up to hang out with us and observe this tune. I didn’t realize it at the time but his presence would turn out to be an enormous blessing in my very near future.
As the tune progressed Doc began to notice some unique anomalies appearing on the dyno. I’m not going to explain the technicals of the matter but tuning the Fullsac proved to require unusual compensatory adjustments. It can be done and Doc can do it for sure. It was however, a personal choice of mine whether to continue or not. Doc would be the one to contact for further information on this.
I was not aware that the inside diameter of the Fullsac at the exhaust port was only 1.5 inches or so. However, in order to make a stepped header 1.75 at the muffler end, you would have to begin with 1.5 at the port end. This is what Fullsac has done. Apparently it works pretty good in many applications. Some individuals are showing some mighty fine numbers. I felt a significant increase myself when I replaced my stock gear with it. So they are without a doubt a vast improvement power wise over stock. And of course, you can use the Fullsac cores and any other 1.75 muffler with this design without any adapter, so there are advantages.
I decided however to switch over to a larger pipe diameter. This would leave my future open for any performance level of engine mods I might choose to do. I thought about the V&H power duals. It is certainly a quality pipe and looks excellent. Rick has them and is getting great performance out of them. He has the Fullsac cores and they sound great.
I thought about the Fuel Moto Stainless Xpipe but I had only one day to make a purchase. Doc’s time frame as well as mine were quite narrow.
I began looking closely at the Rinehart True Dual Xtreme. These headers are mandrel bent, stepped from 1.75 at the port to 2” at the muffler end and they are ceramic coated. Their look is a matter of preference. Personally, I love the appearance. They have a beefy aggressive look about them that adds ruggedness to the refined appearance of the CVO Ultra. I also like how both pipes slant back similar to the softail design. I’ve always preferred that look over the forward curve design. This stylistic counter balance works for me. I love mixing old and new in a tasteful fashion.
Since they are true duals the rear pipe maintains it’s full diameter as it routes under the bike to the left side. I kinda like that. So I decided to make the purchase. (No price break. Full MSRP. Not cheap!)
This is where the blessing of CVORick’s presence manifested itself. This guy offered (I did not even have a chance to ask first) to go 2 hours one way to Destination Daytona and pick this gear up for me and bring it back next day. If Rick had not been there with a willing spirit, I would have had quite the challenge working all this out. So he went, checked out the kit to ensure all the parts were there and returned Friday. Thanks Rick. You're one cool dude.
Friday morning Rick and I began installing the kit using Doc’s tools and bay area while Doc tended to his Friday tune appointment. The attitude in the garage and desire to work together made this whole ordeal really a lot of fun. We spent the day working and having a good time. Rick and I would only make fun of Doc when he was in the dyno well out of earshot. After all, my tune wasn’t done yet.
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Every once in awhile Doc would come out and examine our install progress. I took credit for all the good stuff and blamed Rick for all the mistakes. That’s why when Doc would come out and ask “Who did this part?” I’d first have find out if it was good or bad before answering.
Truth is, Doc has tricks and techniques to ensure proper seating of the exhaust and I learned a lot even with something as “simple” as an exhaust install. It was very reassuring to have a pro looking over your shoulder.
After the install of this magnificent exhaust system, we fired it up. Yep, they’re Rinehart’s alright. Nothing sounds like a Rinehart. I had them on my 08 RK with their old style true duals. Music to my ears then, and sound even better to me now. I originally was looking for something quieter than Rinehart’s. But to tell you the truth, at cruising speed they sound great. Idle and decel give me chicken skin. However, if you get on it, well… you know what happens when you throw down on a Rinehart system… it’s all business.
So in to the dyno we go with the Xtreme duals two days later than my original appointment. The first thing I notice is there is no decel popping. Even before the tune, the Rineharts had eliminated all decel popping. This was obviously a quality exhaust and was proving itself to us from the word go.
You would have to talk to Doc as to the actually tuning challenges but it seemed as if he was having fun tuning these Rineharts. I felt that things were reasonably predictable for him with no extreme anomalies or unusual surprises.
As Doc meticulously tuned my bike it just kept sounding better and better. He does not rush. Bring your laptop or reading material because you’re going to be there awhile. There’s water and soft drinks in the fridge and an air-conditioned office with TV and wireless internet for you. Or, you can watch the dyno through a window.
Doc informed me that he was not fully satisfied with the numbers you see above. More on that in a moment.
But he was done with the tune and now it’s time to for a test ride.
THE TEST RIDE -
The first thing I noticed was the engine started easier and quicker with much less effort. The actual take off from a dead stop is also noticeably easier. As I released the clutch the bike rolled out from a stop with noticeable smoothness. I knew at that moment something good had happened to my bike.
As I took her out on the road, it was like a different engine. Smooth is the best word. From take off to acceleration to decel, everything was smooth. I went to the top of the hill around the corner from Docs, wound out 4 gear and let the gravity drag me down to 1500 rpm to test for any decel pop issues and there were none. Not one. Oh happy day.
Acceleration through the gears is like honey. She winds up like a sewing machine.
Since leaving Doc’s I did a 7-hour ride to Woodstock Georgia for the Traxxion install. That is where I am at the time of this writing.
I have all the torque I need and at 65 mph I can twist the throttle and off she goes.
After two full tanks, my fuel mileage has apparently increased an average of 2.5 mpg to about 40. I'll do more testing on the way back to NC to confirm my exact hwy mileage.
More power and better economy - now that's a combination I can appreciate.
Doc seems convinced the 110 engine requires head work to breath efficiently. The 54 cam I installed did in fact increase power but the heads appear to be stifling it's true capability. Apparently, Harley has designed the 110 to produce some nice torque but has sacrificed HP. Why? … Perhaps Emissions? Noise? Maybe both.
Docs viewpoint of restrictive heads is supported by two dynos that I personally know of. Both 110 engines installed the Woods T7 cam which is bigger than the 54. However, both engines are producing less power than the 54. It should be the opposite.
You can’t knock down a brick wall with a tennis ball. Throwing a basketball at it won’t help. It’s just harder the throw. |
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Apparently, the 110 can easily be over cam’d as Doc warned me about. If you do over cam it, it responds with power loss, not gain. All things considered, I agree with Doc’s findings that to realize the potential of the 110 (especially with large cams) head work is a necessity. Both the cat in the exhaust and the heads appear to be severe restrictive points in the 110.
I think the 54 might be all the cam the 110 can take without head work. But I suspect it too would certainly show improvement with even a minimal amount of head work.
As for the infatuation with numbers that some folks have… consider this.
I was watching drag racing the other day. The winning qtr mile speed was a little over 290 mph. The loser was just over 300. Both left the line virtually simultaneously as far as my eyes could see. I don’t live and die by numbers. To me numbers are reference information. Numbers can’t tell you what I feel when I ride this bike after Doc’s tune.
So there it is. With good exhaust, good intake, the Andrews 54 and a truly professional tune from Doc you’ll get good economy, cooler temps and significantly more QUALITY power over stock. Those were my primary goals when I set out on this modification/tune and that is what I got.
Could you do better with some other cam or the 251 or maybe even the stock 255? Perhaps in some rpm ranges. But I honestly believe that without proper head work, we’re just splitting hairs at this point.
Doc says the 54 runs cooler than the 255. That alone is worth the swap to me. I might gain or lose a ft-lb or two from one cam or exhaust vs. another… but the way I feel riding this bike now... I couldn’t care less.
Some good advice might be to contact Doc before you build. Know what you’re getting in to. Match your components. But don’t just call to pick his brain. Hire him to do the work or the tune. If you don’t hire him, then demand that he give you his paypal address and send him some money for his advice. It’s the fair thing to do.
Finally, let me say that Doc’s wife Elizabeth is just a delight (you got a good one there Doc). They’re both wonderful spiritual people and I enjoyed their company very much. If you decide to hire Doc to do your tune, be sure and get the address of the local Mexican restaurant for lunch. Get the chicken chipotle burrito there. Then get the address of the Japanese Sushi restaurant for dinner and get the teriyaki salmon bento there (it’s not raw). You will not believe how good that sushi dinner is.
Thanks Doc and Elizabeth. |
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Hello All,
Well she's done!! We spent an amazing two days at Doc's Performance learning how to use and apply the TTS software. First day, we went though learning how the software works. We were told by Doc to do our homework and study instead of having a few beers. It was hard, but that's what we did. The second morning we were told O.K., build a map for your Trike. We did so, downloaded the calibration and started the V-Tune runs. After each run, we would anylize the data, make the appropriate adjustments to the fuel tables and make another run. After four total runs, Doc was pleased with the way that I had hit the cells while riding the Trike. Do not misunderstand, we did the work and Doc supervised and helped us when needed as a good teacher should. He made a final adjustment to one cell and smoothed out one area on both cylinders. We also marked the rear wheel and floor, rolled the bike forward one revolution and remarked the floor and measured the distance. This allowed us to convert and calculate for the proper speedometer readings. I'll need to check that with a GPS, or police radar. We also re-initialized all of the parameters that are shut off when doing V-Tunes and re-calibrated the throttle position settings. The EMC was then reflashed with the final calibration. Doc then told me to take her out for one last spin to see how I felt about the final tune. All I can say is that there is a difference between night and day in the way the Trike runs. I'm pleased with the additional power and the roll on power is truly a big difference. Although it cost us a few bucks to do this class, the Wiz gave us good advice to do this. The learning experience was well worth the trip and the Trike now runs the way that it should have from the factory. I can't speak highly enough now about how great the TTS is as a tuning tool. IMHO, it allows you to do so much more than other tuners, no matter what the advertising tells you and leaves no detectable footprint in your ECM if done correctly. Right now, I'm one happy Trike camper with a bike that I know between the the Wiz and Doc has been done right. There are some better cams out there like with 555's, but I'm happy where I'm at and still in warranty with my dealer. We have now been certified by Doc to V-Tune using the TTS. Now he wants the shop to buy a dyno (LOL). I hope this information helps someone out there looking for heat reduction and more power. Buddy.....
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Dyno runs by Docs Performance Tuning
I recently purchased, ceramic coated, and installed a full beautiful Torque Hammer Exhaust system which I purchased from Dris at www.Twinmotorcycles.nl . At the same time I had him reflash my ECM with his map and previously posted my experience. I believe that Dris works very hard to produce the best map he can using HIS own bike and the map I received was very good as I have posted previously. Their was a notable increase in how long the torque lasted deep into the rpm range. Throttle response was good and cruising at all rpms was very smooth. So I went to my local Harley dealer for a dyno run and while the torque curve was surely wider, peak numbers were down a few Hp and foot pounds. At that point I decided I had to see if I could maximize the performance of the Torque Hammer system even further with a tune that was individualized to my bike and the climate/elevation that I live in. So after some research and a referral from a respected forum member, I called "Doc" of www.docsperformancetuning.com Doc is a master TTS tuner and trainer. All he does is tune Harley twins and trains other shops on how to do it. He travels all over the USA teaching TTS tuning to other shops. You can read all about his extensive experience and credentials on his website. He will not reflash ECM's. You have to bring your bike to him. He has customers bringing bikes to him from all the surrounding states(including Alabama). Fortunately, he is only a four hour drive from my south Florida home so I trailered my bike to him last Friday. His shop is in Minneola Florida, not far from Orlando. Trailering a bike and riding a bike on to and off of a dyno were new exciting experiences for me. He has a modern well equipped dyno room and spent the entire day tuning my bike and involved me in the process. He even took my wife and I out for a great lunch together at a local small town diner. We had a great visit. He is a wonderful person. He tuned WOT with wide band O2 sensors and then installed the narrow band stock O2 sensors. By the end of a long hot day in the mid 90'sF with high humidity and temps in the dyno room exceeding 100+F the tune was done. Without seeing the before and after dyno charts, he had me do a lengthy test ride. The strong difference in throttle response and acceleration were immediately noticeable. Before and after WOT 4th gear dyno runs are attached for your review but they only illustrate a small part of the improvement in the way the bike rides. Every aspect of the tune was dealt with and is excellent. I know we all agree that dynos cannot be compared to one another but the difference in the before and after graph and the way the bike now accelerates(and it was good before) demonstrate the benefit of an individualized tune for your bike if you are fortunate enough to have someone like Doc that you can take your bike to(which is not the case for many riders). If not, I would still have Dris reflash my ECM as he does the best that can be done without having your own bike on hand, rather than have an inexperienced tuner install a 1-3 hour tune on my bike. Clearly, every bike and geographical location is different so while canned maps can be good, an individualized custom tune done on your own bike from a Master Tuner like Doc is better. As Doc said to me, " your two cylinders flow differently on your own bike-how can you expect another bike to flow and be tuned the same as yours?" want to see photos of the Torque Hammer system on my bike you can view them on the first post of my BST carbon wheel review thread. Thanks Doc!!
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Baby Got A New Tune Today!
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Just had the pleasure of spending the last 2 days with Doc down in central florida at Docs Performance Tuning and all I can say is WO
Baby Got A New Tune Today!
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Just had the pleasure of spending the last 2 days with Doc down in central florida at Docs Performance Tuning and all I can say is WOW! He not only met my expectations, but exceeded them beyond my imagination. This man is one of the few true craftmans left and a professional to the core. He is very meticulous in his work. After having my local dealer try and tune my bike twice to no avail, I now have something that runs as designed.
Had the Woods TW6-6 installed, Fuel Moto X Pipe, Rush 2" baffles, and TTS installed. Removed the V&H Power Duals and V&H HO exhaust and now use the HD SEPT as a paperweight for my desk. Bike made 94 HP and 108 ft lb torque. When I get home I will scan and post the dyno sheet.
Even better than the numbers is rideability of the bike. Doesnt even seem like the same bike.
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W! He not only met my expectations, but exceeded them beyond my imagination. This man is one of the few true craftmans left and a professional to the core. He is very meticulous in his work. After having my local dealer try and tune my bike twice to no avail, I now have something that runs as designed.
Had the Woods TW6-6 installed, Fuel Moto X Pipe, Rush 2" baffles, and TTS installed. Removed the V&H Power Duals and V&H HO exhaust and now use the HD SEPT as a paperweight for my desk. Bike made 94 HP and 108 ft lb torque. When I get home I will scan and post the dyno sheet.
Even better than the numbers is rideability of the bike. Doesnt even seem like the same bike.
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Good morning Doc. This is Master Thibodeau, who's 96 Wide Glide you tuned yesterday. I don't normaly take the time to write an email thanking someone for anything. I suck at typing! But, I just wanted to tell you first of all how impressed with how clean and organized your shop is. I don't think I have ever been in such a clean and well organized shop. I noticed you even had what tools were in each drawer marked on the outside of your big red box. I did not mention to you, I have a degree in Mechanical engineering, and was thoroughly blown away with your vast knowledge of Harley performance and tuning. I think perhaps it takes a Master, to appreciate another master. And Sir, that is what I found you to be, a true tuning master. My bike runs perfect in all 3 circuits. The idle is so smooth, my bars barely shake at idle (amazing you could accomplish this with a carb) no hesitation off the line, no more popping on decel. And when I crack the throttle, I really have to hold on now. Thank you so much, it was worth evey penny. I would be happy to recomend you to anyone if you ever need an endorsement.
Kukkiwon International Master Instructor, Mark R. Thibodeau
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Garth
Rode home non stop at 80mph with a few passes at 90 ......37 mpg great smooth as silk ....thanks for fixing my scooter. Your advise and knowledge produced the perfect combination of power torque and balance in the rpm range where I like to ride. This motor is now classic HD .....defines fun. Sounds good too......zoom |
2011 SESG
Installed a TTS Mastertune, Jackpot header, Fulsac 2.25 baffles, K&N air filter and had dyno tuned at Docs Performance in FL, (what a great guy to work with, really knows his sh!t).
I did have the Night Rider Xi-eds (resisters in O2 sensor harness to fool ECM into making AFR richer) installed from the time the bike was new, the plugs were a nice light caramel color so they did work good to richen it up but after riding with the new header they did nothing to reduce the heat. I also went to Redline 20-60 engine oil, it didnt do anything for the noise but did increase the hot idle oil pressure.
I have about 500 miles on the bike since tune and have a noticeable reduction in engine noise, that annoying rattle/ticking at approx 2100-2600rpm. I am very pleased about that, not to mention the reduction of right side heat and how great the bike runs/idles. The handle bar/mirror shake has all but dissapeared. As a career mechanic I cant explain this reduction of noise and can only conclude it is a result of the TTS and good tune balancing the cylinders (it is definitely almost gone). I will say the bike runs so much better and is a total joy to ride. I don't want to get you guys started but it should come out of the box like this!
I also wasn't happy with the sound of the baffles with the stock cat pipe, Steve at Fulsac did say wait till you change the header before you make any changes, he was correct the sound is just a notch louder and richer, when you twist it up it is pretty loud without being annoying.
I was very hesitant to do the tuner and header because of the warranty concerns but now I don't care because of how much better the bike runs!
Oh and I think the gas mileage is better but I have a hard time staying out of the throttle!!! I will explore the mileage issue on my trip to Sturgis.
Just my 2 cents
Wayne
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Well build was done and thought would relate my experience with Doc and the results(still need to get the dyno sheets scanned) I left GA on Weds really late and got down to FL early Thursday morning left the family and raced over to Docs place. Rolled up and there was another bike sitting in the immaculate garage. This gentleman rolls up and asks me how I am doing and if he can help me out. I am here for my build I proudly announce and I assume you are Doc. He responds yes but you arent due till tomorrow. Umm no I say as we walk to the office. Doc pulls down the clipboard and sure enough I had messed up the dates!! So he tells me to show back up the next day and enjoy the day. Spend the day with family laughing about me being such a moron and was a constant joke during the build. Showed up the next morning and rolled into the garage. We sat for a bit talking as the bike cooled before Doc began to tear her down. I have never seen a shop that clean and organized!!! As Doc worked he was uber patient answering my questions and explaining things(his days as an instructor showing through) by noon the bike was tore down and we broke for lunch. Had a great lunch listening to his history and opinions on things. Got back and he was able to almost get everything done except we were lacking some gaskets besides it was 5 and time to shutdown for the day anyways. Rather than have me sit there and wait for my ride Doc gave me a ride to the Harley dealership which made it easier for the wife to come get me. Next day I show up and he had finished things up and we rolled her into the dyno room at which point I was "kicked" out and allowed to observe a true professional operate through the window. He went through things in the dyno room and it was hot! Doc would come out for a break every so often and let me know how things were going. By lunchtime he had things on the front done to his satisfaction. We went out to Mexican for lunch and discussed things. Got back to the shop and he continued to work by 3:00 he came out and pronounced the tune was done and asked me to take a ride. I then took her for a spin and WOW what a difference. Pulled smooth accelerated out of the hole no pop on decel absolutely felt like a different bike. Doc then explained the sheets and how things played out. SAE numbers worked out to 84 HP/94 Lbs Torque, STD 86/96 respectively. I wrote my check and thanked him profusely but regrettably didnt get to go with him for sushi due to the family already planning something. Next day did 100 miles around town and played with the power. Used to be at 65 MPH passing was an adventure with a lot of prayer being used at times. With the new build passing is FUN! Got back to GA and went for a quick run 2 up and the bike pulled as predicted by Doc. Its been a month and we just got back from riding Blue Ridge around VA and pounding the highway home. Riding the Blue Ridge was wonderful as going up and down and around the build performed flawlessly!!! I had power when I wanted/needed it and when I wasn't hammering the throttle got decent mileage. My opinion is that this was money absolutely well spent and I will go to Doc's in a Ney York minute with any other bike I had or if some one asked me who to take their bike to.
Mark |
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its only fair to print the only negitive review I ever got also.....
Duffy
This is my experience with doc's dyno tuning. Went by his shop on 3-27-2010 and discussed getting my bike dynoed. He advised if you not satisfied you don't have to pay for the tune. Got an appointment for the next Saturday. He spent 6 hrs in the dyno room tuning the bike got 100 hp and 106 fpt. He had me drive it onto and off of the dyno, he does not ride bikes. Took it for a test ride and got decel pop from 3500 down to idle. He spent another hour changing maps and having me test ride. He said I was trying to make it pop. He then said it was due to a 6 inch piece of rap on my one of my pipes. i offered to remove it but he said he was to tired and wanted to go home. He said that once I remove the rap it would cure my problem and presented me with my $435.00 bill which paid. 2 hour ride back home, took 5 min to remove the rap and still popping. Rode the bike on vacation and I'm only getting 30 mpg 2 up riding. When I stop at a red light the gas fumes would burn you eyes. Took him 7 weeks to get the bike back in to work on the popping. Another 2 hrs in the dyno room and you can here it popping outside the dyno room. He called me in and had me run the bike on the dyno and although it was better it was still popping. He had me drive it off the dyno and take it for a test ride. I was gone for about 5 minutes and when i got back the shop, it was closed and he was gone. Called him several times and finaly got him on the phone. He refused to refund my money and will not attempt to correct the decel pop or my fuel mileage. He has the AFR set at 11.8 in the 20kps column, he also change the BIOS from 762 down to 723 without doing a V tune run. Bike now idles from 900 to 1100 rpm, and gets 30mpg. Wid open throttle is awsome but i don't do that often
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